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<P>На этой неделе состоится открытие выставки «Против течения: швейцарские
технологии<B> </B>Blue Tech для охраны водных ресурсов» и ознакомительный
семинар «Интернет воды (Швейцария) и вклад ИТМО в защиту водных ресурсов» при
участии Генерального Консула Швейцарии от факультета экотехнологий.</P>
<P>Здесь будут представлены восемь швейцарских решений по эффективному
водоснабжению и рациональному использованию водных ресурсов.</P>
<P>Для вас:</P>
<P>— возможность познакомиться с опытом Швейцарии в области защиты водных
ресурсов, а также с исследованиями Гринтех в этом направлении;<BR>— идеи для
собственных проектов и решений для устойчивого развития водного сектора в
России;<BR>— знания о тенденциях и вызовах в области водных ресурсов.</P>
<P>Открытие выставки:</P>
<P><B> СПб, 16 октября</B> <B>в 15:30, Библиотека (5 этаж), ул. Ломоносова,
9</B></P>
<P>Семинар:</P>
<P>— <B>16 октября 16:00-18:30</B>, <B>Медиазона, ул. Ломоносова, 9,</B>
аудитория 1303/8;<BR>— пройдет <B>на английском
языке;</B><BR>— количество мест ограничено, поэтому скорее регистрируйтесь
<A href="https://forms.gle/hxN2SF7Ty85Ya25SA" target=_blank>по ссылке</A>.</P>
<P><I>Выставка будет проходить с 16 по 20 октября в Библиотеке на Ломоносова, 9
(5 этаж). Вход свободный.</I></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=ltr class=gmail_attr>пн, 13 окт. 2025 г. в 08:43, Bulat Yessekin <<A
href="mailto:bulat.yessekin@gmail.com"
target=_blank>bulat.yessekin@gmail.com</A>>:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="garamond, times new roman, serif"><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)" class=gmail_default>И</SPAN>нтервью с автором <SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)" class=gmail_default>К</SPAN>онцепции планетарных
границ<SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)" class=gmail_default> (раздел по пресной
воде):</SPAN></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face="garamond, times new roman, serif">Лан: В настоящее время
существует две границы изменения пресной воды. Один для blue water, который
представлен процентом земель, на которых наблюдаются локальные отклонения от
базового уровня речного стока, и один для green water, который имеет
аналогичный показатель, но измеряет влажность почвы в корневой
зоне.<BR><BR>Альфа: Верно. Итак, традиционно гидрология в 20 веке была
сосредоточена на голубой воде, потому что это акведуки, водопроводная вода и
все такое. Но теперь вы говорите, что зеленая вода, то есть вода, доступная
через почву, растения, на самом деле имеет решающее значение. И вы также
говорите, что это возможно благодаря телеконференциям, верно? Подобно тому,
как при подключении к интернету вода в одном районе воздействует, знаете ли,
на другие районы. Континенты, верно? Потому что у вас есть вода, которая
испаряется, и это влияет на крупномасштабную циркуляцию воды в атмосфере и
через нее.<BR><BR>Лан: Да, именно так. Да. Таким образом, вода - это гораздо
больше, чем просто речная вода, не так ли? Так оно и есть, да, это транспорт
питательных веществ или загрязняющих веществ. Это среда обитания жизни или
биоразнообразия, и это климат. Это облако. Это, знаете ли, облако определяет,
сколько солнечного излучения достигает Земли. Итак, это альбедо. Итак, да, в
чем дело, да, я начал с того, что вода является неотъемлемой частью земной
системы. Это водная планета.<BR><BR>Альфа: И вся система атмосферного
переноса, мы как бы забываем об этом, верно? Но на самом деле именно так вода
попадает в разные места.<BR><BR>Итак, пытались ли вы работать над тем, чтобы
внедрить это в управление и в политическую систему, чтобы привлечь внимание к
важности всего этого атмосферного водного транспорта?<BR><BR>Лан: Что ж, я
полагаю, что в этом направлении предпринимается много усилий. И мы видим
большой интерес со стороны Продовольственной и сельскохозяйственной
организации Объединенных Наций (ФАО), занимающейся вопросами сельского
хозяйства. Вместе с Дэвидом Эллисоном, Пэтти Киз и другими мы написали статью
для журнала FAO, в которой четко описали круговорот воды, в том числе и
атмосферный.<BR><BR></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face="garamond, times new roman, serif">И дело в том, что когда вы
обращаетесь к разработчикам политики, важно еще и то, что все не так просто.
Поэтому я думаю, что когда у нас есть статья, показывающая, что это
экосистемная услуга, связанная с обеспечением лесов влагой. Ученые поймут, что
это один из многих процессов и механизмов. И когда вы обращаетесь к
разработчикам политики, вы должны как бы рассматривать это в контексте.
Возможно, выращивать монокультуру в засушливой местности, как мы знаем, не
самая лучшая идея. Таким образом, контекст - это все. Так что, да, я думаю,
когда мы обращаемся к разработчикам политики, очень важно делать это вместе с
другими, и в то же время учитывать многогранный аспект того, когда лес
приносит пользу водному циклу в целом, позволяя местным рекам не пересыхать.
И, в то же время, способствовать сохранению биоразнообразия. Таким образом, не
только монокультуры в большей степени подвержены влиянию устойчивости, не так
ли? Что монокультура часто не отличается особой устойчивостью, и дело не
только в количестве воды в определенный период времени, но и в том, насколько
она устойчива? И особенно в условиях изменения климата меняется круговорот
воды. Это один из моих других исследовательских проектов, в котором мы
рассматриваем устойчивость мер по смягчению последствий изменения климата,
основанных на использовании лесов. Для восстановления лесных систем требуется
много усилий и политической воли, что приятно. Но насколько это устойчиво? Где
мы должны это делать? И при этом не нанося ущерба местным сообществам. Когда
вы хотите что-то сделать на земле, на этой земле уже что-то есть. Так что это
не так просто.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)"><FONT
face="garamond, times new roman, serif"></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)"><FONT
face="garamond, times new roman, serif"><SPAN class=gmail_default>Полный
перевод интервью: </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(34,34,34)"><A
href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnioDK7sU5Ppq9of8bUEOCxUIHkv74DdIlZILLHA3_0/edit?usp=sharing"
target=_blank>https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnioDK7sU5Ppq9of8bUEOCxUIHkv74DdIlZILLHA3_0/edit?usp=sharing</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: garamond,'times new roman',serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)">Сайт
по воде и климату: </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: garamond,'times new roman',serif"><A
href="https://climatewaterproject.substack.com/podcast"
target=_blank>https://climatewaterproject.substack.com/podcast</A></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: garamond,'times new roman',serif"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: garamond,'times new roman',serif">Best
regards,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr class=gmail_signature>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face="garamond, times new roman, serif">Bulat K.
YESSEKIN</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=ltr class=gmail_attr>пн, 13 окт. 2025 г. в 00:55, Alpha Lo from
Climate Water Project <<A href="mailto:climatewaterproject@substack.com"
target=_blank>climatewaterproject@substack.com</A>>:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
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border=0 alt=""
src="https://eotrx.substackcdn.com/open?token=eyJtIjoiPDIwMjUxMDEyMTk1NTMzLjMuNzU4NTUwN2JiODc3NzNlNUBtZy1kMC5zdWJzdGFjay5jb20-IiwidSI6MjYxMzEzMzM4LCJyIjoiYnVsYXQueWVzc2VraW5AZ21haWwuY29tIiwiZCI6Im1nLWQwLnN1YnN0YWNrLmNvbSIsInAiOjE3NTk3MDM5NiwidCI6Im5ld3NsZXR0ZXIiLCJhIjoiZXZlcnlvbmUiLCJzIjo1MzI4NjMsImMiOiJwb3N0IiwiZiI6dHJ1ZSwicG9zaXRpb24iOiJ0b3AiLCJpYXQiOjE3NjAyOTg5NDYsImV4cCI6MTc2Mjg5MDk0NiwiaXNzIjoicHViLTAiLCJzdWIiOiJlbyJ9.fw5RZdgOArReDcOmXsiN4BL5NEXqIOwrCzXzZmV1zZY"
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<DIV
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 1px; DISPLAY: none; MAX-WIDTH: 0px; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51); MAX-HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 1px; OVERFLOW: hidden; opacity: 0">Moisture
recycling as an ecosystem service</DIV>
<DIV
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 1px; DISPLAY: none; MAX-WIDTH: 0px; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51); MAX-HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 1px; OVERFLOW: hidden; opacity: 0">͏
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͏ </DIV>
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aria-label="Post header">
<H1
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 36px; MARGIN: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: 'SF Pro Display',-apple-system-headline,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol'; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 32px; FONT-WEIGHT: bold"
dir=auto><A style="COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); TEXT-DECORATION: none"
href="https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=532863&post_id=175970396&utm_source=post-email-title&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=4bkunu&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoyNjEzMTMzMzgsInBvc3RfaWQiOjE3NTk3MDM5NiwiaWF0IjoxNzYwMjk4OTQ1LCJleHAiOjE3NjI4OTA5NDUsImlzcyI6InB1Yi01MzI4NjMiLCJzdWIiOiJwb3N0LXJlYWN0aW9uIn0.-SwUVAjwic_wlyyh2R0Lb4qYALoHr46QGpgnJh1_KKw"
target=_blank>,.</A></H1>
<H3
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 24px; MARGIN: 12px 0px 0px; FONT-FAMILY: 'SF Pro Display',-apple-system-headline,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol'; COLOR: rgb(119,119,119); FONT-SIZE: 18px; FONT-WEIGHT: normal"
dir=auto>Moisture recycling as an ecosystem service</H3>
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href="https://substack.com/@climatewaterproject"
target=_blank>Alpha
Lo</A></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR>
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12</DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD>
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<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px">Lan
Wang-Erlandsson is a researcher studying moisture recycling. She
focuses on the large-scale interactions between land, water, and
climate, and their implications for social-ecological and Earth system
resilience. She has conducted work on the planetary boundaries and
tipping points of green water, helped society understand moisture
recycling as an ecosystem service, and collaborated with the FAO (Food
and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations) on reports
examining how moisture recycling intersects with the future of
agriculture.</P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px">Her
work has emerged from two scientific lineages. Science often evolves
through such lineages. Hubert Savenije was working in the Sahel region
of Africa when he wondered why rainfall did not keep decreasing
further inland, as it should if the air rained out water closer to the
coast. He concluded that there had to be moisture recycling, where
moisture evaporated back into the air and then fell again as rain.
Other lineages have called this same phenomenon precipitation
recycling, or the small water cycle.</P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>Two
decades later, Ruud van der Ent (who previously appeared on this
</SPAN><A style="COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="https://substack.com/redirect/ef59e3c2-d009-47d2-a81c-b2b7030ac9b3?j=eyJ1IjoiNGJrdW51In0.KOZfO-6JEyvRhEuUjLb8gW_imryoGpxZHT_51sl73y8"
rel="" target=_blank>podcast</A><SPAN>), a graduate student of
Savenije’s, built on his work to create a map of global moisture
recycling. Lan Wang-Erlandsson would eventually collaborate with van
der Ent, as would Patrick Keys, who would work on hydrosocial aspects
of moisture recycling.</SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px">Lan
Wang-Erlandsson completed her graduate work at the Stockholm
Resilience Centre, which brought its own scientific lineage. The
Stockholm Resilience Centre (SRC) was founded in 2007 by Johan
Rockström and Carl Folke as part of Stockholm University. Its
intellectual roots reach back over half a century, drawing on
ecological economics, systems thinking, resilience science, Earth
system science, and work on sustainability, tipping points, and the
interplay between society, economy, and the biosphere.</P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px">From
this foundation, the planetary boundaries framework emerged. In 2009,
Johan Rockström, then director of the Stockholm Resilience Centre, led
a group of 28 scientists to formulate the concept of planetary
boundaries in the paper “A Safe Operating Space for Humanity.” The
idea was to identify critical Earth-system processes (such as climate
change, biodiversity loss, nutrient cycles, land-use change, and
freshwater use) that regulate the stability and resilience of the
planet, and to estimate thresholds or “boundaries” for those systems
that should not be crossed if humanity is to avoid large-scale,
abrupt, or irreversible environmental changes.</P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN></SPAN><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
I’m a researcher and team leader of the Anthropocene Dynamics theme at
the Stockholm Resilience Center. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
And when you say Anthropocene, that the era where people are affecting
the Earth. And so you’re studying how they’re affecting the water, and
how that then affects the whole Earth. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
Yes, exactly. You know, the human impact on the water cycle is really
very severe and widespread now. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
And the Stockholm Resilience Center is, as I understand it, a pioneer
in this whole planetary boundaries approach to understanding the Earth
systems.</SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
You could say that in the past 12,000 years, the Holocene, it’s the
only time in history that we know for sure is able to support modern
civilization and agriculture the way as we know it, right? The Earth
system has several tipping points. So the transition could be
non-linear. And so whether we sort of exit this, we call it the safe
operating space or corridor like, that the Holocene-like conditions,
if we depart from these conditions, it could be in an abrupt way, it
could be in a more gradual way. We don’t know that, but sort of the
further away you get from the safe operating space or the more as you
transgress the boundaries, there’s a risk, there’s a higher risk of
dangerous conditions, you could say, progressively more dangerous. So
the boundaries, I think you may have some understanding, is that if
you cross the boundary, you are already in the danger zone. So some
people ask, you have nine boundaries and six of them are crossed, how
come we are not all dead? And that’s not what the boundary is doing,
it’s the boundaries are set as guardrails. So you could imagine that
you’re standing at the cliff, you don’t want to stand precisely at the
cliff, but a few meters away, right? So the boundaries are the
guardrails. So now we are somewhere between the guardrails and the
cliff, and it’s an uncomfortable zone we want to get out of.
</SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
And then one of the nine planetary boundaries is the water, right? And
so that’s what we’re working on. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
Yes, exactly. So the planetary boundaries identify nine Earth system
processes or components that are vital for the system resilience to
function, for the Holocene-like conditions to continue, to support
humanity. And freshwater change, so the quantitative changes in
freshwater, is one of them. And of course, you could say that some
other boundaries also relate very much to water, such as
biogeochemical flow that deals with phosphorus and nitrogen pollution,
for example. And eutrophication is a big problem. You have the novel
entities about chemical pollution, and you know, microplastics in
river systems is a big issue. And then the same goes with land system
change, biosphere integrity, that also includes life in aquatic
systems. We know are much threatened. And then climate change,
obviously, that is the main culprit behind the water extremes that we
see. So they’re very much interconnected, I would say. But yes, my
work so far focused on the freshwater change boundary that was
previously called freshwater use. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
How did you get into the whole water field? </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
I’ve always been interested in environmental issues. I remember when I
came to Sweden, it’s like 1990. It was a huge transition. So at the
time in China, the water, the environment was very polluted. And the
only place that was green, I grew up in the city of Guiyang, the only
place that was green was the park. So when I came to Sweden, I
realized everything is so green, like the whole country is a park. So
I think that’s sort of where it started. Oh, you can have it this
clean. Is that possible? Is that even possible? So I think that
ignited my interest for environmental issues. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px">So
it wasn’t necessarily water, but I was very interested in
sustainability, sort of how we can make the environment more livable.
And also just seeing that it is possible. But then I, yeah, I think
the more I think about it, I find myself kind of obsessed with the
thought somehow that we live on this unique planet Earth in this
universe. And we are kind of the only conscious ensemble of molecules
and atoms. And that somehow it comes somehow with a responsibility or
like just so precious that we live, right? And water somehow is tied
to everything that is alive. It was the basic element that made life
possible. If you go on Mars looking for life, you would look for
water. And water is connected to climate, it’s connected to pollution.
It’s very much connected to everything on Earth. So, I guess it suited
me well to work with water as a person who is very interested in our
living conditions as a whole. </P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px">My
master’s was in civil engineering. Then I did my PhD with water in
Delft University with Hubert Savenije and Ruud van der Ent. </P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
So you and Ruud were together in graduate school? </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
Yes, and Patrick Keys. So we were kind of a trio working very closely
together on moisture recycling-related issues. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
What was the issue that you worked on? </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
The aim of my PhD was to figure out sort of how land is quantified,
how land-use change affects rainfall. So Ruud has a really cool model
that could track moisture, but it didn’t necessarily tell us a story
of how land-use change affected rainfall. So my PhD started a couple
of years after his. And so the question then was what does this mean
in the time when humans, if we look at historically, humans have
affected, well, affected basically all land systems on Earth, but
transformed around half of the land surfaces, turned it into pasture
or agricultural land and with massive irrigation. So how does that
change this water cycle? This was my thing I was dealing with.
</SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
And were you looking at for that social-ecological as opposed to the
purely ecological aspects, or you were looking at both? </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
Yes, I guess when I started, it was very biophysical in the sense of
just looking at the quantitative water flows. And of course,
conceptually, Pat and I, we worked a little bit more into sort of
conceptual thinking, how can we conceptualize this as a
social-ecological system because you can imagine that you might have
some sociological feedback that we ever say we haven’t really tested
out quantitatively, but you can imagine that, you know, if you
deforest Amazon, you reduce evapotranspiration, the moisture input to
the atmosphere, decreases the moisture transport in the atmosphere and
decreases rainfall. That part we know from the modeling. And so that
decreases again, the rainfall not only over the forest itself, but
also over the cropland that in the first place caused the
deforestation. And the question is how do the people then on the
ground want to manage land given the feedback loop or and/or given the
knowledge that this is happening? Right. So will they try to reduce
deforestation and restore the moisture flow? Or will they sort of, oh,
we have less water and the crop yields are negatively impacted. We
should deforest more to have more land, right? So there are
sociological interactions and feedback that, that should come out of
this, but it’s more like a question mark, I think, than precise
answers to that. I have a PhD student now looking into that, but she’s
focusing more in the African continent.T</SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px">The
Congo rainforest is actually a very important moisture recycling
region. So if you look at the Amazon internally, the moisture
recycling ratio annually is around 25, 30, that’s on different
estimates. And for Congo, it’s almost a double. But the Congo region
is also more interesting because it’s also precisely where the
Intertropical Convergence Zone moves around. So you would say that
from different seasons, the moisture contribution either goes from the
Congo towards the north or to the south. So there are different
countries benefitting in different times over the year, very
different, yeah, seasonality. </P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
Which are the main countries that benefit from the Congo rainforest
rain, or getting rain from the Congo rainforest? </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
That’s a good question. The three recipient countries that receive
most precipitation from the Congo forest are Congo, Gabon, and
Equatorial Guinea on a mean annual basis. They receive around 30% of
the precipitation from Congo, and during the dry season, so June,
July, August, Congo and Gabon receive 50% of the precipitation from
the Congo forest. So it’s really substantial. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
So you’re framing this as an ecosystem service, right? So land use is
providing rain? </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
Yes. Exactly. So that was together with Patrick Keys. And so as I
mentioned before, even if you just look at the moisture, like the
moisture flows themselves, it doesn’t mean that the entire flow is
there because of the vegetation. Even if you remove the vegetation,
some evaporation will happen. And the other thing is that it depends
on which type of vegetation you have. So if you have a forest with a
very deep root, they will be able to provide moisture also during the
dry season and dry spells. So there’s a seasonality to it as well. But
you would see that like the short vegetation like grassland, they
wouldn’t transpire as much or at all in the dry seasons. So in that
way, you can regard it as an ecosystem service that certain types of
especially wooded vegetation are providing to support rainfall. And of
course, in the ecosystem service framework, you’ve been talking about
regulating services and support. So conceptually, it’s kind of there.
But I think what we did together with the co-author leading that work,
what we did there was to quantify it. It’s a first attempt to quantify
how much of the, if you would have two scenarios, one with vegetation
as we have today and one without like barren land, what would the
difference be? And that difference we termed ecosystem service. It’s a
simplification, of course, because we know that when you remove
vegetation, more things will happen than just that the evaporation
will not be there. You will change the wind, you will change the
temperature. So a lot more things are going on. But yes, from a water
balance perspective, you could call that quantification the ecosystem
service of the moisture-supplying service from vegetation. And of
course, you can combine it with other system models, runs and all
that, compare the difference between barren and vegetated land. Right.
</SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
Okay, cool. And so did you look at other places apart from the Amazon
and the Congo rainforests, other continents like the ecosystem
services providing rain for? Like have you also studied by like, say,
in Europe, how land use is providing ecosystem service of rain?
</SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
Yes. So one thing with the ecosystem services, it’s not just the
amount over the year, but it’s also sort of when you want to look at
the ecosystem properly, you actually also need to look at in what way
it’s resulting in actual benefits. Right. So actually, you might want
to know to what extent is it mitigating droughts or heat waves in the
downwind area. And so we had a paper with Agnes Pranindita who looked
at it. And so in her paper, she analyzed heat waves in Europe and
found that forests tended to have a disproportionate influence on
moisture supply during those times, which is very aligned with our
understanding of how forests operate that they are able to be this
buffer, they can store the water and then release it also when it’s
dry, which helps mitigate not only locally, we know that from previous
studies that forests have this cooling effect locally, but also
remotely by providing moisture. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
So how does this all connect? So you’ve been doing work on this
tipping point, right, on all the planetary boundaries? So how does the
ecosystem services of the atmospheric water play into the planetary
boundary? </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
So the, there are several parts to this. If you look at the planetary
boundaries in terms of tipping elements, for example, the Amazon
forest or the tropical rainforest, they are massive land carbon sinks,
right? So they are helping us currently, they are doing this as a
service of absorbing CO2 emissions from fossil fuels. And but when
they die, they will instead be releasing carbon to the atmosphere. So
instead of helping us, they will make our efforts to come down to the
1.5 degrees, Paris Agreement more difficult. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px">So
the moisture cycle of course plays a role in stabilizing those
important carbon sinks. There are estimates. If you look at the carbon
sink strength of the Amazon, and if you continue to extrapolate that,
there are estimates that say that this switch might happen already
over the next decade, depending on deforestation rates, not only on
moisture recycling, but moisture recycling kind of amplifies that
effect, right? So if you cut down the forest, you not only cut down
the forest, but also remove the extra moisture supply that comes with
the forest. So it certainly plays a huge role there. </P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px">And
you also have the irrigation effect. You have the massive irrigation
in India that is depleting groundwater to start with, but also
modifying. So you could say that you have the important monsoons in
the Asian continent there that is supporting agriculture. So you have
the dry period and then you wait for the monsoon for the crop to grow.
So it’s very important. But there are also research that has shown
that if you pump that much water into the atmosphere, by irrigating
the crop lands, you are decreasing the temperature over land, right?
So there is then a less difference between the land and ocean
temperature. So the monsoon is drawn into the land because of the
temperature gradient, but it’s warmer over land and cooler over ocean.
And the warm air over land is rising and therefore sort of driving the
monsoon into the Asian continent. But if you reduce the temperature
gradient, you might have an effect on the monsoon. So some research
has pointed out that it’s actually delaying the monsoon onset, for
example, which is a continental to planetary scale change. </P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px">These
are two examples where this kind of land-atmosphere interaction come
into the planetary boundaries framework. And of course, the planetary
boundary framework, the way we represent it, we only looked at the
percentage of land areas that experience a departure in either stream
flow or soil moisture, root-zone soil moisture. So it’s a
simplification, but you could say that we looked closely into many,
many more. So under the hood, the planetary boundaries conceptually is
trying to account for all these things that are happening. And then we
provide a simple metric as percentage of land, they’re waiting for
those. But the understanding is that all those things are connected.
</P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
Right. It’s a very complex non-linear process that you’re trying to
simplify enough so it’s a useful governance thing. So like in the
Amazon, if the forest is providing rain, but that rain is needed to
grow the trees to sequester the carbon. And so if there’s that
feedback loop that if you get past, you’ve crossed the rain cycle,
you’ve crossed the carbon sequestration, and then it has all these
ripple effects throughout the whole. And the whole Indian continent,
if you shift the temperature gradient by what are we doing with the
water, then that shifts the whole way that rain cycle gets driven.
</SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
Yeah, so these are large-scale processes. And we don’t know all the
answers. And there’s quite some uncertainty, which is partly where the
planetary boundaries are coming to also just not knowing the large
risk or risk in itself. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
And then you also, in this whole planetary boundary framework, you’re
looking at green water, right? Can you explain the green water
framework for water? </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
Professor Malin Falkenmark was the one who coined, or colored the
water cycle. So she termed the blue water and green water decades ago
in an effort to help policy makers to understand the issues
particularly related to green water. Because I think maybe still, but
particularly decades ago, a lot of the focus on water resources
management was on so-called blue water. So the liquid water, visible
water in rivers, lakes, and groundwater and much less attention is put
into the green water. So the water in soil and that contributes to
transpiration. The water that is actually used in most photosynthesis
processes by both ecosystem and grown crops. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px">So
her point was like, look, we have blue water resources, everyone seems
to understand that. We have infrastructure, all the water resource
management is looking into that. But how about green water, which is
actually over 80, 90 percent in many places. Thinking in South
America, Africa, it is still over 90 percent of the agriculture that
relies on green water only. So only rain-fed, using very little, our
known irrigation water, right? So, yeah, so that’s the difference
between green and blue water. So this was actually originally coming
from there. And before we, before I worked with the green water of the
planetary boundaries framework, the planetary boundary for water was
called freshwater use. So also focusing on blue water. The interesting
thing is that if you look into the supplementary material of the 2009
paper by Rockström et al., there’s a whole page on green water, on the
green water’s role for monsoon system, for Amazon, for tipping
elements, for sustainability, you know. So everything is there, but it
was under the hood. So somehow it didn’t communicate. And there was
lots of misunderstanding on if we just look at freshwater use, how
much we use, that it doesn’t really reflect the planetary risk we are
facing. </P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px">What
is the Earth system impact of using, you know, a little bit more water
in total over the globe? So different kinds of critique. That was one.
In other words, that, well, if you lump it into a volume of water that
you can use globally, what happens if you use a lot of water in India
and none in Europe or US? Is it still safe or not? And of course, what
we see is that water changes. The impact on Earth system are much more
widespread. It’s not just about water use. It’s not just about how
much water you withdraw from rivers. That matters. And it’s there.
It’s all there in the 2009 paper, but they just didn’t come out
clearly. And by not presenting it clearly, a lot of those things were
sort of lost in the margin. So what we did was to say, you know, we’re
not interested in maybe freshwater use per se from an Earth system
perspective, but we’re interested in freshwater change. And we want to
have a sub-boundary for blue water and a sub-boundary for green water.
Yes, it was years of discussions with many colleagues. Yeah, as you
can imagine, this kind of work really needs interdisciplinary and
collaborative work. It was fun. </P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
The freshwater is made up of both blue and green water, right?
</SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
There are two sub-boundaries to the freshwater change boundary now.
One on blue water, which is represented by the percentage of land that
experiences local deviations from baseline of stream flow, and one for
green water that has a similar but measures root-zone soil moisture.
</SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
Right. And so traditionally hydrology in the 20th century was focused
on blue water because that’s aqueducts and piping water and
everything. But so now you’re saying, the green water, which is the
water that’s accessible through the soil, the plants, is actually
really key. And you’re also saying this is through teleconnections,
right? Like teleconnections being like the water in one area impacts,
you know, somewhere else. Continents, right? Because you have the
water being transpired and it affects large-scale atmospheric
circulation of water and through the atmosphere. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
Yes, exactly. Yeah. So water is so much more than just river water,
right? So it is, yes, it is the transport of nutrients or pollutants.
It is the habitat of life or biodiversity and it is climate. It is the
cloud. It is the, you know, and the cloud decides how much of the, it
regulates how much of the sun’s radiation reaches the Earth. So it is
albedo. So, yeah, what’s the, yeah, I started with like water is so
much of the identity of the Earth system. It’s a water planet.
</SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
And the whole atmospheric transport system, we kind of forget about
it, right? But like it is actually how water is getting to different
places. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px">So
have you,been trying to work to try and get this into governance and
try to get this into the political system to awareness of the
importance of all this atmospheric water transport? </P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
Well, I guess there are many efforts on that front. And we see a lot
of interest from the UN agricultural extension FAO (Food and
Agricultural Organization of the United Nations). We were with David
Ellison, Patty Keys, and others, we wrote an article for the FAO
journal clearly describing the water cycle, also including the
atmospheric one. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px">And
the thing is that when you reach out to policy makers, one thing that
is important is also that it’s not that simple. So I think when we
have an article showing this is the ecosystem service of the moisture
supply of forest. Scientists will understand that this is one of many
processes and mechanisms. And when you reach policy makers, you have
to sort of put it in the context. It might not be the best idea to
plant a monoculture plantation in a dry area, as we know. So context
is everything. So, yeah, it’s very important to, I think, when we
reach out to policy makers to do it together with others and both sort
of accounting for the multifaceted sort of when is forest benefiting
the water cycle as a whole, both allowing local rivers to not dry out.
And also, at the same time, promoting biodiversity. So it’s not just
monocultures that are more subject to the resilience comes in there
again, right? That a monoculture is often not particularly resilient
and it’s not just about the amount of water in a particular time, but
also how sustainable is it? And especially under climate change, the
water cycle is changing. So that’s one of my other research projects
where we look at the resilience of forest-based climate mitigation
measures. There’s a lot of effort and political will, which is nice,
to restore forest systems. But how resilient is it? Where should we do
it? And also without harming local communities. Whenever you want to
do something on land, there is something on that land already. So it’s
not so simple. </P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
So the FAO, that’s one of the leading agricultural global entities,
right? It’s a big deal that they’re actually recognizing this.
</SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
Yes, I do see that. And also in conferences, more organizations are
talking about it. Johan Rockström is the co-chair of the Earth
Commission and the Global Commission on the Economics of Water. And
they had a couple of reports now quantifying the moisture exchange
between countries and frame it in the way that policy makers
understand. So if you frame it in terms of the economics of water, if
you frame it in terms of a trans-boundary issue. I think it’s really
being taken up by people who are understanding it. I’m not sure if
it’s been taken up in policy but I see it coming. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
Okay, so it’s being recognized, but there’s not necessarily policy
passed to restore land use to increase the rain. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
Not that I know of. Okay. Not like particular policies. I don’t know
if it’s good or bad because, you know, you don’t want it to be
misused. I really hope it’s taken up in a good way and used in the
right way. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
In the whole hydrology or climate movement, is it just a very small
section of scientists talking with governance people, or is there
more. Is it growing?</SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
Sophie te Wierik’s finished a PhD now a couple of years ago. And so
she was really focusing on the governance of atmospheric moisture.
She’s at Potsdam Institute. I also just generally see more governance
people being interested, which is always good because we can only do
as much as with our more biophysical background. We can try to reach
out, but ultimately you need to work together with governance
scholars. We had a collaboration with a number of people who worked on
implementing moisture recycling in life cycle assessment. That was one
example of trying to implement it in actual thing that are being used
by companies. And we have another project working on the Earth System
Impact Score, led by Steve Lade in Australia. Who is trying to create
a score of planetary boundaries interactions, and we’re not there yet,
but eventually we will hope to integrate moisture recycling
considerations also in this metric, which is something that can be
used by companies and investors to assess not only their local impact,
but the normal metric will do the job for, but also how their
operations affect a large-scale kind of planetary scale. And it’s a
continent or the planetary scale impact. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
Do you personally talk to people at FAO? </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
I talked to them. We just had put together a a report with FAO
together. So I think this organization also is really happy to work
together with researchers. And of course, the majority of my time goes
to research, but I do try to make a good chunk of time to contribute
to reports and policy briefs to the extent that they also reach the
policy makers and I think that’s a part of me fearing that our
concepts will not be used in the right ways. I can’t keep my fingers
away from yeah, at least reviewing those reports. Okay, yes, it’s
formulated in a nuanced way. But I don’t know if policy makers like
that. I think they kind of prefer maybe the simplest straightforward
recommendations and here I come with the more nuanced recommendations.
</SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Alpha</B><SPAN>:
Do you have any last words to share? </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><B>Lan</B><SPAN>:
I think this field will continue to move forward and hopefully go more
interdisciplinary so that it can have a real impact. I think we are
starting to recognize and realize that the water cycle is not just a
function of the climate, but a part of the living system. So those
that live on earth depend on the movement of water. It’s a tiny
fraction of earth water that is fresh that is used for all life on
land and the reason it can be used is because it’s in movement. So
it’s a renewable resource really. And this water cycle is also then
dependent on life. So at the same time that the water is giving life,
the life is also giving water. </SPAN></P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px">We
really need to think</P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px">of
the water as an intertwined thing. The water cycle we have today is
not just a biophysical abstract thing, but it’s something that is
shaped by the whole evolution of life on earth and a result of co
evolution with life. And now we are part of as a species, we are part
of shaping the water cycle. And I think we need to be really careful
thinking about how we are shaping it, whether it’s in a way that is
good for us or in a way that is practically self harm. And we are the
only species that is doing this knowingly and consciously. So I think
with that lies a big responsibility. </P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px">………….</P>
<P
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 20px; COLOR: rgb(54,55,55); FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>Lan
Wang Erlandsson’s </SPAN><A
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rel="" target=_blank>web page</A><SPAN>, which includes her key
publications </SPAN></P>
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<DIV>-- <BR>Вы получили это сообщение, поскольку подписаны на
группу "seu-international".</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">From: <B
dir=auto class=gmail_sendername>Sasha Shkrebets</B> <SPAN dir=auto><<A
href="mailto:sasha@teia.org">sasha@teia.org</A>></SPAN><BR>Date: вт, 14 окт.
2025 г. в 13:28<BR>Subject: Re: Восстановление воды как экосистемная
услуга</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>Коллеги, возможно кому-то будет интересно поучаствовать ...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></FONT></DIV>
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